Super Duper Intelligence - BONUS - Darkside with Dave Edition

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Welcome to The Dark Side with Dave, featuring cybersecurity's hardest working podcaster, Dave Bittner. While he's not covering the daily cyber beat on the Cyber Wire, he's busting scams with Joe Kerrigan on Hacking Humans, tackling privacy with Ben Yellen on Caveat, and proves there's always room for one more cybersecurity podcast with only malware in the building. Hello, Dave Bittner.

Hello, Jason. Hello, Brian. It's good to be back. Seems like the weeks fly by, don't they? They do. They do. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. So, Dave, I have spent the last, you know, couple days vibe-coding our new show notes app.

And you are, besides Brian, the first person to see it outside in the wild. And I'm curious, we used to use an app called Quip from Salesforce, and they're sunsetting it. So, that is going away. Right.

So, I rebuilt it using the I's of the A's. I did not use super intelligence or super duper intelligence, but I did use the codex to build this thing out. And I'm curious, what do you think of it?

I'd say so far, so good. I mean, it's very comparable to what we were using before, so I feel comfortable in it. My initial reaction was, oh, I've got to increase the font size. There's a slider for that. Yeah.

So, I did that, and that was fine. But, no, it seems fine. Maybe slightly less colorful than what we had before, but there's nothing. I don't have any complaints. It all seems to work.

And I think we slid into this new version with little resistance at all. So, well done. Thank you. Thank you. So, the reason I bring this up is we spent $30 a month on Quip. And that was grandfathered in because if we were to pay for it at the normal price, we would have been paying $60 a month for the three of us to be on that piece of software.

Oh, wow. Which is a collaborative document software. We can collaborate in real time with our documents and do all sorts of stuff. The new version that I made has, like, 18 more features that we need. Like, it highlights the colors of the different speakers so we can tell who's doing what and all sorts of stuff.

This took me seven hours of just waiting for it to do its thing. I spent maybe an hour prompting it, and the cost in tokens was $14. Oh, wow. Now, I take this software, I put it on a $12 a month VPS from Vulture, and I just saved us a bunch of money.

And it's better and faster. So, I was just, you know, I shit on Vibe coding all the time. And I think that if a regular person came in to do this, they would have spent a hell of a lot longer because I know what I'm doing as far as how to build software. It's exactly what I told you, Jason.

I was like, this is fantastic. But the reason it's fantastic and the reason it worked is because you've got 20-plus years of programming experience behind you. We've got 10 years of using Quip behind us. You knew exactly what needed to happen. You knew how to get there. And if somebody just said, just tried to do it that didn't have all that, it wouldn't, it would take months and thousands of dollars.

Yeah. If I was going to charge somebody this back in the day, this would have been a $50,000 to $100,000 piece of software easy. That was my next question. Yeah. So if someone came to you and said, we want you to execute this, knowing what you know now, how do you factor in your 20 years of expertise into the bottom line when you did this in a day or two?

Yeah. That's the thing. It's like, how do you factor that in? It's like, do you charge per project? Do you charge hourly? It's like, if I charged hourly, I would never eat again. So you have to, you have to take into account, it'd be like $1,000 an hour to actually get something done.

Back when we were, you know, back in my video days when we were, you know, the early days of like 3D rendering and that sort of stuff, we had the realization that if you charged by the hour for rendering, you were not motivated to update your computers because the slower they were, the more money you made.

Right. Yeah. So we, we just started making everything project-based. Yeah. It just worked. Yeah. I mean, for the 20 plus years I was running my company, it's, we, we couldn't do hourly. It was, everything was project-based, so. Yeah. And I found that too with, cause I used to do podcasts by the hour and it's like, I can do, I am so fast now.

It's like, if I do it by the hour again, I wouldn't eat. So you have to do it by the project because otherwise that experience like goes out the window. It's like, I am so efficient with everything that I do because I've got 25, 30 years behind me. And it's like the kids nowadays are just like, Oh, you know, I vibe coded my way out of this.

And so my hatred for the vibe coder still stands. I do enjoy, I do enjoy, I do enjoy doing it though, because this was a shit ton of fun. You know, it's, it's nice to be the boss when I can just tell somebody who is, you know, somewhat capable, but not really capable because I'm repeating myself a lot.

A lot of that time is me going, no, not like that, like this, like that's like that sandwich video that I posted about somebody trying to tell an AI how to cut a sandwich in half. You know, there's a lot of that going on. Yeah. I'm curious, like the first time this came out of the gate.

So I imagine you gave it a crap ton of instructions. No. Because no. Oh, really? Okay. He pointed it at Quip and said, rebuild that. I said, go to the Quip website and rebuild this. That's literally what I did. Okay. And it came back and I've been actually taking features out that it put in automatically for stuff that I'm like, that we never use and then customizing it.

So when the first round comes back, how many stupid broken things are in there? Almost none. Wow. Almost none. It worked almost flawlessly out of the gate. There were, you know, formatting things and just little, little tweaks.

But as far as functionality went, it went like pretty much straight up. And I'm using, I'm using the new Astra model from OpenAI on high, which is, you know, like, you know, the top of the line OpenAI model. I don't, I, me and, me and fucking Claude are going to go out back and have it out one of these days because that motherfucker does not listen to me anymore like he used to.

But, uh, yeah, the new Astra, it works pretty damn well. If you, if you, if you, if you got yourself a new girlfriend, yeah, pretty much gets you. She does, she totally gets me. So it came back pretty, pretty quick. And, and every time that I put in a prompt now to, to modify something, I know how to word it as a programmer would word it to make it do the thing that it needs to do.

I know the caveats along the way. I was like, do this, don't do this, make sure this is in here, look to these pages, make sure you update this. So it's like, it's very much knowing what, it's not like, make, make this clicky, clicky go there. You know, it's not, it's not like that.

Yeah. Is it doing its own testing along the way? Absolutely. It has the version that I have right now, and I didn't tell it to do any of this. It will do over 115 unit tests based on any update that I make to make sure everything works before it deploys.

And it runs locally in a testing environment that it built itself using Docker and Postgres and all this other stuff before it will deploy to the, the VPS server. The fun part about the VPS server is I went and I said, make me a VPS server on vulture.com, pick the $12 a month package and gave it my SSH key.

And when I went, when we were, when we were done building it and I had it locally running, I said, go secure this server, update this, update the server with the software needed to run this package and install it and write the manual. So if I ever needed to do this on my own without you, I could do it.

25 minutes later, VPS was all set up, locked down, SSH was locked. All the security packages were updated and the software was running and I sent it to Brian. It's fucking crazy. So how do you deal with the budgeting? Like you said, it cost $14.

How did you make it so that, you know, seven hours later, it wasn't $1,000? I'm using the $100 a month open AI package, the pro plan. Okay. So I'm, I'm not using the API for this. So if I was using the API, I could, you could actually track it and see how much you're spending on it.

I'm going by the percentage of tokens that I've used for the week because you get a weekly token allowance. So I take, you know, take it, divide it by five weeks and then, you know, take the hundred divided by five, 20 bucks a week, use 47% or whatever, 48% of the tokens.

And then boom, that's, that's how you get your number. So for that part, it was easy. Now I mentioned all of this in service of the, the challenge that you laid down to me, which was to go take the open source software that you use for your ham radio and rebuild it.

And I did, and I sent it to you. Yes. And I, this was all a lead up to that. Well, I've opened it and let me just say off the bat that I am dazzled by how it looks like mission accomplished. You, you, and by you, I mean you and your little AI gremlins or gnomes perhaps, uh, did a great job.

And I'm curious, like, what did you tell it look and feel wise? Did you say, make this look like a Mac app or, you know, use modern visual standards? Like, how did you tell it to break out of that old windows 95 look and feel? I, well, the first thing I did was I told it that we were going to take this open source software and we're going to turn it into a modern Swift app for the Mac.

So I wanted it to use Swift for everything. That's all the apps that I use now because the Swift is like the kind of the go-to. So I don't want to use any legacy stuff. So I'm like, turn this into a modern looking Swift app that we're going to compile for a Mac that I need to be able to sign and distribute to my friend Dave, who has a ham radio.

And, and I, I pointed, I created a little Git repo with the source that you gave me and let it run. And that's what it came up with out of the gate on its own. I gave it no other design instructions besides make this a modern Swift app for a Mac.

How long did it take it to do it? Three hours. It took three hours with a couple of little tweaks because there, there's that really, there was that one really ugly screenshot that was very, very windows 95 with the graphs and all that stuff with the, with the graphics. Yeah.

That one, I had to go back and tell it a couple of times. I'm like, no, go back and fix that one too. Cause that was like a subset of the code that went back and fix that one too, I think. So I can't test it cause I don't have a ham radio. That's why it was interesting. I wanted to see how it worked. If it worked. Yes. From first run to sending to you the first time.

Well, I still have to hose it up to my ham radio. So I've been holding off on that. I, as I mentioned to you, I was under the weather of the weekend. So I promise you by the next time we get together, I will have done that. It's interesting because I think the first time I booted it up as it was sort of initializing itself, one of the old windows popped up from the old version ever so briefly.

And then it disappeared and the, the modern interface came up and I went, Ooh, smoking mirrors. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I don't know what it's doing under the hood. I don't care as long as it works. Yeah.

But the other thing that, that, um, this made me realize when, because first of all, like I mentioned this offhanded is, wouldn't this be a nice thing to do? And you, uh, you know, very nicely and, and, uh, you just did it and you sent it to me and you're like, Oh, I just did this.

And I was like, Oh, I just created a bunch of work for myself because now I have to test it. Well, but that's the thing. Like an app like this, it made me realize why there aren't a whole lot of different versions of an app that does this, because this app does so many things.

With so many different protocols, there's no way I can test them all. Uh, the other thing about the, this particular app is that in order to use it, you need a friend who also has a ham radio and has the other side.

This, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's not really like a null modem for, uh, for, for communicating with yourself with this sort of thing. So I have to figure that part of it out as well. Well, and I will, uh, but, um, yeah, so it was a nice sort of recalibration for me about what it takes to build and maintain a project like this.

It's not just the behind the scenes. It's not just the technical that when you're dealing with dozens of models of ham radios and dozens of digital protocols, that's a crazy grid to try to test against.

Uh, and so, you know, respect to the folks who made the original, I don't know how they manage it. And I can understand why they don't update it very often. So, yeah, it saves a lot of time and a lot of late nights and a lot of frustration and a lot of, you know, uh, under appreciation coming to them for people who are just like, my radio doesn't work.

And they're like, well, you fucking pay me then, you know? Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Um, but I think, I, I just think it's fun that, you know, when we can do this stuff now and yeah, I'd still make fun of vibe coders.

I'm going to make fun of vibe coders, whatever. Uh, just cause it's fun, you know, but you, you throw a Gen X coder a problem, Dave, I'm going to solve it no matter what. That's right. That's right. It's true. You know, it's like, it's like throwing matchsticks on the ground in front of a vampire.

They're going to count them. They're going to fucking count them. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, uh, yes, I, I believe me. I understand that impulse. Uh, as I'm, you know, in the midst of repairing. My ham radio power supply that blew, you know.

Oh, not another power supply. But he's got all the tools now. Well, that's the thing. I have all the tools. And a windmill. I have all the tools, but I'm doing the same thing I did when I built the, or when I repaired the piano, which is, I'm using ChatGPT to walk me through the repair.

And it's great. It's a great companion.

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So here's my question, though. To what degree do you feel like your guard of cynicism that you drape yourself in is being taken off of your head as you experience, as you do these various vibe coding projects and they're successful?

As these models get better every time, which we knew it was going to happen. We knew every time you get a new one, it's going to be, whatever you're working on is the worst it's ever going to be, with a few exceptions, because they have gone back a couple times and really screwed the pooch. I'm enjoying it.

I'm enjoying it a lot because I understand what it's doing, for the most part, when it builds things. So for me, it's literally like I finally have my own team of people that I can tell what to do. And I enjoy that part.

I'm still a horrible businessman, so I'm never going to make any money off of it. And while I understand that the kids nowadays can find this extremely intoxicating, and from what you asked, Dave, my cynicism is pretty much razor thin at this point.

I fucking love using it. I have it open all the time. I feel bad when I'm not actually using it because I'm like, I have this tool here that I can just point anything at it and say, make me software. And it's really good at software. There's a lot of things it's not good at, but as far as software goes, it's terrible at emotions.

So am I. So we get along really well. It's great for me. One of my best friends. But, you know, as far as building software goes, I am just, I am like a kid in a candy store. You know, I've got, I've got. Do you think about the long, longer term impact of it, though?

Do you, do you? No. Well, I know you tend not to think about long-term impact because you're convinced you're not going to be here in about 10 years anyways. But for the, like, everybody, like the problem that we always talk about is nobody's hiring junior programmers anymore. There's no entry path anymore because nobody's learning the skills that you and I have learned over the years and years and years of being a programmer, which is what helps you be really good at using these tools now.

Or do you just think the tools will get sufficiently good enough that we will never need entry-level programmers anymore? And it will get to the point that those dumb fucks that used to project manage us that didn't know anything will be able to do what you're doing now. I have a very good answer for that. I think that the people who like to code are going to learn how to code no matter what.

I think people like us, people like Dave, we, we, we're tinkerers. We love to learn. I think those people aren't going away. And I think this is a great gateway to actually learning how to code because you can, you can say how, make me this.

And then you can go look at how it made it. And if you want to learn, if you have the curiosity, those people are still going to be around. They're not going anywhere. You know, engineers are not going anywhere. You know, anybody with curiosity for the sciences, they're not going to go anywhere. Just the standard, it kind of comes back to what I said at the beginning of the AI revolution is here's mediocrity.

Here's the people below. Here's the people above. It is eventually going to compress all of those people. But I, I, I'm starting to think more, more along the lines of the people that are up here are going to stay up here. The people up down below, it's going to bring them up from, you know, being dumber than dirt to at least decent at doing what the fuck they're doing.

The, the smart people are going to learn how to use this as a tool and not really rely on it the way that we used to. I mean, we're seeing this with writers. We're seeing this with everybody else. The people who love to write, the people who love their jobs, it's not affecting them.

It's actually making them better at it. To, to get to your point, Dave, I think my cynicism is definitely cracked quite a bit because I think that the human nature behind what we do and what we love to do is going to override the laziness factor that I was originally feeling that everybody was going to kind of fall into.

It's like, oh, well, I don't have to do that. I can just type a thing and go. You know, I think, I think, I think our curiosity is going to override that. And the people that matter, at least, you know, there's always going to be the unwashed middle who just don't give a fuck and they want to go have a Big Mac and go watch Friends.

So that's not going away. But I think the, the smarter people in society and the people who are more ambitious and have drive, I think this could actually help them some. It's a shocker, I know. I'm particularly interested in your, your notion that the, that this will help raise the floor.

You know, it'll, it'll provide capabilities to people who otherwise might not have opportunities. It'll be an enabler for them. That, I think that's a really interesting take. Yeah, it's just what I've seen lately with, you know, people that I know that maybe aren't on the, you know, the deeper end of the pool, have been using it a lot.

And it seems, they seem to be learning how to use it to help them get ahead and bring them up from where they were. So, you know, I also have seen some people use it to cheat on tests for regulatory certificates and things like that, where they should probably learn the material.

But, you know, come see, come sign, you give, you get. Cheating is going to cheat. Cheating is as old as time, so, yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's no difference from them having another window opening and Googling it. It's just a little faster to take a picture of the quiz and say, what's the answer than it is to go Google, Google, Google, you know?

It's the same output. I think I've kind of been on board with your take on this, Jason, for a little bit now, and that, you know, people that are engaged and interested, this is just going to be a tool that really, really helps them. What I'm always more intrigued by, and I don't know if there's an answer for this, is more the financial perspective, because we were just talking about, you know, how do you price out a project like something like this, especially when the people that you are selling it to

or theoretically selling it to at some point will know, because they're aware of the tools as well, that this is now just something that used to take two months for us to build and would have been $100,000. They know that you know that they know that you know that it's actually five hours and a couple tokens.

So how do you make a living then? Because we all know. This is why I got, this is why I got, this is one of the major reasons why I got out of the video business was, you know, one of my biggest clients came to me and said, we want you to edit a video. We're making a new HR video. And I said, great, who's going to shoot it?

And they said, we are on our phones. Yeah. And I went, okay. Yeah. Well, and Squarespace and social media killed any web design as business. Like it was just done instantly. And now Squarespace is fucked. Yeah. Squarespace is dead. Yeah. So here's, I've been trying to think about this because I'm trying to put together, you know, a business model for rewriting software for local businesses and small, small business owners who use subscription software that they pay for every year.

So find out what they pay every year. So say it's $100 a month. Per however many users, how many seats they have, you know, say, so they spend $1,000 a month. If I can get that down to them spending, you know, $100 a month, take whatever that difference is, cut it in half.

You pay me that for one year's worth of software that I am writing for you. And then from beyond that, you're on your own. You can hire me as a, you know, I can keep a maintenance contract after that, but look at what the delta is between what they're going to pay now versus what they were paying. Take it, take, take a small portion of that or a, you know, a decent portion of that.

And then you've solved their problem. They're spending less money. You're making more money and you're taking it away from the big conglomerates with the big software that they were paying for that they use probably a tenth of the features anyway. You know? So you're kind of, you could be their AI Sherpa.

Yeah. Just, just, just do AI arbitrage between shit software and good software. And, and also you can customize it then for what they need, which I think is the real kicker because I think what I did with the, our stuff with the, um, you know, with the show notes software, this is going to save me a million hours.

You know, if we keep doing this show, it's, it's crazy. And I've written an RSS reader that is also now tied into this. So I read my articles, I press a button and it goes into the show notes automatically. So I can then tweak my voice to the, the stories that are going to come out.

And, and I've got it on my phone. I've got it on my iPads. I've got it on my, all my Macs, the same new software that then ties into the same backend. And this took like no time at all compared to what it would normally take. And, you know, and if, if other people find use in this, then I pass it along to them.

I just give it to them because, you know, it's, it's, it's, I don't know. It's just, it's interesting. You need a sponsor. It's just interesting. Right. If you'd like to sponsor Jason and the show, please write it. Patreon.com slash GOG, baby. So no, it's, it's fascinating.

And I'm, I'm really, I'm intrigued by everything you're saying here because particularly the part about going through the lazy zone, right. And coming out the other side, because I've had that same thought of what happens with everyone's natural inclination towards laziness.

We all have it. I have it. Everybody has it. And so an AI just feeds into that initially. So it's really interesting for me to hear you saying that maybe that's a zone everybody goes through, but for some people you make it to the other side of that.

And now it's being used for all kinds of things that improve your productivity and your happiness because you're having fun. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think, and you know, since these things are just basically prediction machines, you, you learn what they're going to, they're going to give back to you.

That's why the writing is, is so terrible now. You know, it's like everybody who uses it for writing, they can spot it. They can spot somebody who used AI for anything, an email, a webpage. Yeah. You can, you know, you become attuned to it. Yeah.

You totally become attuned to it, but then you take that and then you put it in your own voice, but it's a good starting point. It gets you 80% of where you need to be in a short amount of time, but then you can make it your own. And I think that people who use this, use, you know, LLMs repeatedly get past that point.

They, they, that laziness, like you said, it, there's that, that hump. Once they get past that hump, they just use it as a tool to make their day better. And I, I'm seeing that over and over again now, which is the weird thing. Cause I never thought I would, you know, I just thought everything was just going to devolve because we do this show and everything is shit, but I'm actually seeing the other side of it where people are really kind of, you know, it's new technology.

We're going to evolve with the technology and seeing people evolve with it is fascinating. It's really fascinating. And just watching it myself, you know, I never thought we would be having this conversation today ever. I'm like, vibe coding is shit. Fuck these guys. I got a hundred thousand views on my, my Instagram post about vibe coders or shit, you know, come on.

Right. Right. Well, next Jason, you can point your vibe coding lens at Riverside. Let's rebuild this thing. Ooh, Ooh, there's some infrastructure there that they paid for. There's some infrastructure there that they pay for that is difficult.

It is difficult to do. But I, I can't wait to try the new one next week that you send to us. No, this one works. This one works. You got me thinking, Jason, because what I am about to embark on a project of rebuilding the shitty website for my local Rotary Club that I'm a member of.

Right. And now I'm thinking, hmm, maybe I'll just, this would be a good opportunity to learn something and play with something. And, you know, rather than just going to another platform that has templates, maybe I can make exactly what I need.

Absolutely. Do that. Absolutely do that. Seriously. And use, but you, use, use both of them. Use open AI and use Claude. Yeah. At the same time and send them the same prompts. See which one works better for you for what you're trying to do. Experiment.

It'll cost you 40 bucks for a month and you can just, you know, beat the crap out of it. And if there's something that you like and you run out of tokens, well then, you know, drop the hundred bucks. Hundred bucks to build a website is like, what the hell? That's nothing. Right. Exactly. It's literally nothing. That's what it costs, Jason.

You and I would have been like dead a long time ago. I know. A hundred bucks for a website. I was charging a hundred thousand for websites back at the time. A hundred dollars was the phone call that I got on to tell me if I wanted to work for you or not. You know, that was it. So I can spend a hundred bucks and build a really nice website.

Fuck. Why not? So interesting. Yeah. And, and like I said, they're, these things are unit testing against themselves. Now for code, it is really good. I would not, I would not try and devise a bio weapon. You know, I don't know, try and try to figure out if there's nuclear weapons on a Chinese ship or I don't know, target a school somewhere and accidentally kill a bunch of kids.

Yeah. Well, there's lots of reasons not to use it for things. Yeah. No, there's a, there was the joke this week about how, uh, the FAA, is threatening to use AI for, for air traffic controllers. And I saw someone with a post that said, Oh, you're right. That runway was full of traffic.

Oops. My bad. Yeah. Sorry. Oh man. But yeah, it's, um, it's, it's, it's, it's a strange, strange new world, I think. And I'm enjoying it. I'm actually now I'm enjoying it now that I, my cynicism is kind of, you know, tempered a bit with, you know, it's cause things change.

Things change. I was, I may have been hung on the past just a little bit, but also. I'm happy to see you so happy. Like to, to see you truly and honestly excited about something energized by something like this. I think that's wonderful. Thank you.

It's fun. It's fun. But the final thing I have to say is everybody's going to come back to me and say, but Hey, aren't you building something in somebody's backyard by using AI to make the software that you're using, which is the grumpy old geeks prime directive is don't build somebody, something in somebody else's backyard.

If you know how to do it, you have itself document along the way. So you can move to somebody else's backyard. You can keep hopping backyards just to be a squatter. Or open a text editor and fix it yourself. You know, that's the thing.

This is not like I can, everything that I've built, I can move, I can rebuild. And I have self-documenting is key. Always put in. So here's my last tip for the day. When you're, when you're building a prompt, Dave, this goes with you too, start a local Git repo and say, every time you make a change, commit that shit with a comment that says what you did and keep a manual of what you're doing so that either a new version of yourself or

another LLM can pick up this project from where we left off. It'll save you a million hours because later on, what that document does is when you load that project back up either in a new version or a new model or whatever, it'll read that and it will save that amount of time to save it, the tokens of having to read every line of the source code.

And, you know, it just, it's one of those things, just self-documenting as you go has really helped out. I know this, I've been long-winded on this today, but it's just fun. Oh, I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, it's great. It's been a great conversation. All right. So I'm going to save all the stuff I put in the show notes for next time in our beautiful new collaboration environment.

I called it grip, but I should have called it gripe. Opportunity, yeah. Well, it can be renamed. Just put a little crayon E on the end of it, you know? Yeah. By the time you guys refresh it, probably will be.

Yeah, yeah. Make sure it commits and documents that change, Jason. Will do, will do. All right, guys. All right. This January, Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship takes over the ocean.

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